#Questions_on_Wahabism with Shaykh Hisham Kabbani (Hafida'ullah). A must read post.
#Question). You say Wahabism is the primary source of extremism.
#Answer). Of course, Islam is peaceful in its history. Islam does not allow aggression.
But the Wahhabi sect spreads a radical ideology, financed by oil money. Today Wahhabism is everywhere, not just in Saudi Arabia. You go to any mosque, you will find literature from Saudi Arabia about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism). You will find on the shelves only books by scholars from Saudi Arabia. You cannot find books by other scholars in these mosques.
Q). Are Muslims ready to say that the Saudis are behind this extremism?
A). Ask the 19 hijackers (who flew the planes in the suicide attacks on the United States in 2001, several of whom were Saudi-born), do not ask me. That will give you a clear answer.
Q). How to stop the Wahhabis?
A). They have been around 40 years, so there is no quick fix. You have to plan for the next 40 years. But the first thing to do is stop sending your students to Saudi Arabia to study. Unfortunately, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, America, Arab countries are still doing that.
Send your students to where there are established mainstream Muslim ways that are currently eliminated from Wahhabi books. Bring back the traditions - the subcontinental traditions, the South-east Asian traditions.
Teach them Sufism, spirituality. They have to be taught to be peace-loving, to integrate and be part of the bigger community.
Wahhabism tells you, do not be part of a kafir (disbeliever) community. (But) you have to integrate with the system wherever you are; as in Singapore, you have to be part of this unique system that you have. You cannot say I am a Muslim, he is a Chinese. Both of you are subjects, citizens of one system. Your religion is between you and Allah. That is Islam.
I would also suggest humbly that you do not import scholars. They come from the Middle East and Africa and have a Middle Eastern and African mentality. My suggestion is to build in the universities an Islamic studies curriculum approved by modern, moderate scholars. These graduates can later teach others.
Q). Is this not something personal, the antagonism between your Sufism and Wahhabism?
A). This is the message we are sending if you want to change. We do not care much really. We live peacefully, live our own lives. But today, we see things are getting out of hand. Even the government has lost control. So we are giving a suggestion: To solve this problem, you have to go back to cultivating a love for the arts, the sciences, poetry, music - the essence of Sufism.
There is no poetry of love today. Only the poetry of vengeance... against the West, Europe, Muslims, Palestine. They are instilling in small kids the sense of hate; we have to change that hate to love.
If you think this is a problem you can solve through diplomacy, in 70 years, they will conquer you and finish you completely. People think there is one (Osama) bin Laden. Who says there is one bin Laden? Every extremist will become a bin Laden.
Q). The way you put it, they seem like a cancer...
A). They are not a cancer. They are an octopus, reaching everywhere.
Q). What is the purpose of the International Conference of Islamic Scholars to be held in Jakarta?
A). It is to establish, once and for all, the proper image of Islam and to empower moderate speakers or scholars to speak up.
Q). The conference flier here says that 'the moderates are struggling for access to the public square'. Why?
A). In my humble opinion, moderate scholars have no access to anything. The dominating voice today is the voice of the Wahhabi sect. They dominate everything: publishing, books, money. Everything is in their hands.
If one moderate scholar speaks up, the Wahhabis will bring hundreds of speakers from their side to speak. That is why there is no public square for the moderates. We are trying to establish a structure for these moderates to stand up and it is a challenge. But we are trying.
Q). Who are these moderates?
A). I give you one example. Mohd Maliki (Muhammad Ibn Alawi Abbas Ibn Al Aziz Al Maliki, a scholar) from Mecca. He was a moderate and tried to stand up against the Wahhabis in Mecca and Medina. Around 1980, he was exiled because he wanted to debate (a fatwa issued by the Saudi religious authorities). After intervention from many Arab Muslims, he was allowed to return, but his movements were curbed. Recently, he died. But to allow his jenazah (funeral) prayers to be done in the Kaabah, they had to declare publicly that he had repented before he died.
Q). What about the moderates in the United States?
A). Most of the mosques in the US are influenced by Saudi teachings. Check the mosques, you'll find Saudi books, Saudi curriculum for the schools. If you speak against Wahhabism, your mosque will not get more funds. The people in the mosques have been brainwashed.
Q). The conference statement also says that 'the struggle for ideological primacy within Islam is a fight that only Muslims themselves can wage'. Is this the position of the conference organiser?
A). Muslims have to come together and discuss these differences and put an end to what is going on, because if the Muslims cannot do that, no one can do it.
Q). Do you see this as a clash of civilisations instead?
A). I do not see a clash of civilisations. Sept 11 caused a clash of civilisation. But I say the clash of civilisation is among Muslims themselves. Muslims are fighting each other; they are killing each other. There are no human rights in Islamic countries. People are thrown in prisons, beaten to death.
Q). One American Muslim writer said that this talk that only Muslims themselves can solve this problem is actually divisive. It is dividing the ummah (community).
A). The Muslim community is already divided. You are telling me there is unity among the Muslims? The Prophet (pbuh) said: 'My ummah will be divided into 73 different groups.' It already exists. It has existed since the time of the Prophet (pbuh).
Today, there is one hegemony in the Muslim world, the hegemony of the Wahhabi sect that makes all Muslims look bad. Maybe the writer you mention is getting oil money. Many writers get oil money.
Q). I do not mean to be rude, but the same could also be said of those who espouse a line similar to what comes out of Washington. That they are being paid by the CIA.
A). I am not receiving anything from the US government. I practise the Sufi tradition - the purification of the self; to be peaceful at all times and not to create confusion. Obey God, obey the Prophet (pbuh), obey the authorities. We do not incite confusion. If we do not like something, we say it in a nice, diplomatic way. We debate. Today, there is no room for debate.
#Question). You say Wahabism is the primary source of extremism.
#Answer). Of course, Islam is peaceful in its history. Islam does not allow aggression.
But the Wahhabi sect spreads a radical ideology, financed by oil money. Today Wahhabism is everywhere, not just in Saudi Arabia. You go to any mosque, you will find literature from Saudi Arabia about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism). You will find on the shelves only books by scholars from Saudi Arabia. You cannot find books by other scholars in these mosques.
Q). Are Muslims ready to say that the Saudis are behind this extremism?
A). Ask the 19 hijackers (who flew the planes in the suicide attacks on the United States in 2001, several of whom were Saudi-born), do not ask me. That will give you a clear answer.
Q). How to stop the Wahhabis?
A). They have been around 40 years, so there is no quick fix. You have to plan for the next 40 years. But the first thing to do is stop sending your students to Saudi Arabia to study. Unfortunately, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, America, Arab countries are still doing that.
Send your students to where there are established mainstream Muslim ways that are currently eliminated from Wahhabi books. Bring back the traditions - the subcontinental traditions, the South-east Asian traditions.
Teach them Sufism, spirituality. They have to be taught to be peace-loving, to integrate and be part of the bigger community.
Wahhabism tells you, do not be part of a kafir (disbeliever) community. (But) you have to integrate with the system wherever you are; as in Singapore, you have to be part of this unique system that you have. You cannot say I am a Muslim, he is a Chinese. Both of you are subjects, citizens of one system. Your religion is between you and Allah. That is Islam.
I would also suggest humbly that you do not import scholars. They come from the Middle East and Africa and have a Middle Eastern and African mentality. My suggestion is to build in the universities an Islamic studies curriculum approved by modern, moderate scholars. These graduates can later teach others.
Q). Is this not something personal, the antagonism between your Sufism and Wahhabism?
A). This is the message we are sending if you want to change. We do not care much really. We live peacefully, live our own lives. But today, we see things are getting out of hand. Even the government has lost control. So we are giving a suggestion: To solve this problem, you have to go back to cultivating a love for the arts, the sciences, poetry, music - the essence of Sufism.
There is no poetry of love today. Only the poetry of vengeance... against the West, Europe, Muslims, Palestine. They are instilling in small kids the sense of hate; we have to change that hate to love.
If you think this is a problem you can solve through diplomacy, in 70 years, they will conquer you and finish you completely. People think there is one (Osama) bin Laden. Who says there is one bin Laden? Every extremist will become a bin Laden.
Q). The way you put it, they seem like a cancer...
A). They are not a cancer. They are an octopus, reaching everywhere.
Q). What is the purpose of the International Conference of Islamic Scholars to be held in Jakarta?
A). It is to establish, once and for all, the proper image of Islam and to empower moderate speakers or scholars to speak up.
Q). The conference flier here says that 'the moderates are struggling for access to the public square'. Why?
A). In my humble opinion, moderate scholars have no access to anything. The dominating voice today is the voice of the Wahhabi sect. They dominate everything: publishing, books, money. Everything is in their hands.
If one moderate scholar speaks up, the Wahhabis will bring hundreds of speakers from their side to speak. That is why there is no public square for the moderates. We are trying to establish a structure for these moderates to stand up and it is a challenge. But we are trying.
Q). Who are these moderates?
A). I give you one example. Mohd Maliki (Muhammad Ibn Alawi Abbas Ibn Al Aziz Al Maliki, a scholar) from Mecca. He was a moderate and tried to stand up against the Wahhabis in Mecca and Medina. Around 1980, he was exiled because he wanted to debate (a fatwa issued by the Saudi religious authorities). After intervention from many Arab Muslims, he was allowed to return, but his movements were curbed. Recently, he died. But to allow his jenazah (funeral) prayers to be done in the Kaabah, they had to declare publicly that he had repented before he died.
Q). What about the moderates in the United States?
A). Most of the mosques in the US are influenced by Saudi teachings. Check the mosques, you'll find Saudi books, Saudi curriculum for the schools. If you speak against Wahhabism, your mosque will not get more funds. The people in the mosques have been brainwashed.
Q). The conference statement also says that 'the struggle for ideological primacy within Islam is a fight that only Muslims themselves can wage'. Is this the position of the conference organiser?
A). Muslims have to come together and discuss these differences and put an end to what is going on, because if the Muslims cannot do that, no one can do it.
Q). Do you see this as a clash of civilisations instead?
A). I do not see a clash of civilisations. Sept 11 caused a clash of civilisation. But I say the clash of civilisation is among Muslims themselves. Muslims are fighting each other; they are killing each other. There are no human rights in Islamic countries. People are thrown in prisons, beaten to death.
Q). One American Muslim writer said that this talk that only Muslims themselves can solve this problem is actually divisive. It is dividing the ummah (community).
A). The Muslim community is already divided. You are telling me there is unity among the Muslims? The Prophet (pbuh) said: 'My ummah will be divided into 73 different groups.' It already exists. It has existed since the time of the Prophet (pbuh).
Today, there is one hegemony in the Muslim world, the hegemony of the Wahhabi sect that makes all Muslims look bad. Maybe the writer you mention is getting oil money. Many writers get oil money.
Q). I do not mean to be rude, but the same could also be said of those who espouse a line similar to what comes out of Washington. That they are being paid by the CIA.
A). I am not receiving anything from the US government. I practise the Sufi tradition - the purification of the self; to be peaceful at all times and not to create confusion. Obey God, obey the Prophet (pbuh), obey the authorities. We do not incite confusion. If we do not like something, we say it in a nice, diplomatic way. We debate. Today, there is no room for debate.
Published December 12, 2004, Defend Democracy. http://www.defenddemocracy.org/research_topics/research_topics_show.htm?doc_id=252855
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